Knuckey’s Lagoon Interviews 19^th May2003

Knuckey’s History

(The names of some people in this interview have not been written for security reasons)

TS: Lot of old people been here, live around like all the longgrassers doing. Well that’s the same, they been live here, found it from Batchelor. They been travel and found it here and they live here, so they been recognized properly. So they been take em all the tin irons that they used to make a shed here. Old Major, Old Nugget, Old Willy Gaden, all that mob. Louise and all that Major family, Willy family — they used to be out in the college, Berrimah. So Bill Day found that mob and started to help that mob, and he did it. He built that house. Louise’s father was president then — Major Rankin.

And he was living on, before cyclone time, wandering around, up and down, nothing doing, back here.

We had just started to live here, came in from out station at Finnis River with my wife. We been live here and they started to recognize this place and they like to live here. Might be couple of days used to come around, talk to the old people, specially Old Major. Bill Day — yeah, he’s a nice bloke. Then oh, lots of people been coming in, Mudananga tribe live here. So, after a while still got a tin house we been live in before. Tin shed we made from collect at rubbish — not really house. And after a while we had a meeting with Bill Day and Jack Phillips. We’ll put a building, built that house.

We used to drink but no fighting, sometimes argue. When the cyclone been coming in we didn’t know, we just got shock that day. We just hang around collecting all the pie and cake and booze. We just sat down and talk, talk. Drunk people been lying down everywhere. And that Old fella went out with a bottle of wine, big bottle. He drink it himself before cyclone been coming in, before 6am I think. He wiped it out, we lost one old man. We couldn’t sleep, we just stand up, standing sleep — too cold. Everything this way been wet, cant do anything. Noone drinking, except Alec Garrawee — he drunk all night. He didn’t care about wind, cold. And after the cyclone, we all been spread. Some people been went away and I went back to Port Keats with my wife early morning. We found that old fella dead. Big mob log from foot to head. We been looking for him til we find him. Found him with bottle of wine, but he never cracked that bottle. And we run up there — one vehicle been running and help us to set that body right, take it. That’s Old Major’s father. Very, very strange hey. In cyclone time, wind. A lot of mess up here tree been die that morning we got up.

Very long not much trouble we been getting it from white fella. Used to go with Roy Kelly, Old man Buk Buk, Old Jaga boy and Old Fred Waters, Willy, Nugget Captain — they used to go with that welfare bloke to have meeting for this place, untill they been win. All the Old people been gone — only that old place there, number 1,2,3,4,5 house really.

When the ADF started here, I wasn’t here then. I went back home to Port Keats. I came back I seen all them house there. I been stop at Port Keats 4 or 5 years. Since I come back, because my wife’s father been pass away. That’s why I came back. Roy Kelly, all that old people been still alive. Normally every morning, sometime every week they come, need to have meeting here for housing, how people want to live here. But me never been work for CDEP, nothing.

 

DT(David Timber): There was only 2 town camps here at the time — One Mile and Knuckeys.

TS: Yeah, that’s it.

Q: Could anyone go to the meeting and talk?

TS: Used to be that what they did, now different. Very hard and we getting down poor too.

Not much help. They did help for these houses last year, that’s it. We don’t see much.

We sitting down, no help, no nothing.

Q Do you feel that you could talk to ADF about what’s going on?

TS: Some time Brenie Valadian come round here. We ask them, he talk to them sometimes.

But we need something to do you know. We not gonna sit down, leave rubbish around laying everywhere. Maybe sometime we got a problem with water blocked up like that, or house damage like that. Sometimes workers come up and we tell that mob to fix it up house. ADF doing nothing much.

Town Camps must pay to use ADF Slasher

GM: We need this grass down cause a few of us nearly got bit by a snake. That little boy nearly got bit at the back of his house there.

Q So why can’t you get that equipment from ADF?

GM: Because it’s not available. Bernie won’t supply it. He wont give it out, he cant give it out.

I don’t know what’s wrong. Like if Knuckeys Lagoon Community want to use equipment from ADF, CDEP has to give funding to ADF to use. I think he goes by the hour.

DT: I think he’s making his own rules that Bernie.

GM: CDEP offered, if they gave us the slashers, we’d provide the fuel, but Bernie didn’t want it that way — he wants a hiring fee as well. CDEP got no power over him what so ever. I think they’re too frightened to talk to him too.

Q What’s ADF’s excuse for not cutting the big grass?

DT: Bernie was in the paper saying that his funding been cut, he can’t cut the grass. What a load of bullshit.

GM: Every other time when he gets the funding we been complain about the grass being long. but after that he just didn’t give a damn. He just telling everybody ‘haven’t got the money to run this thing to cut all this grass’. Well all the mowers we use for cutting this big grass are all buggered up. Just push mowers. We had one ride on but only small one that CDEP gave us for a loan for the big grass in the middle.

DT: He’s been selling a lot of things lately from ADF. Getting rid of stuff. Big steel lathe from the workshop — I saw it on the back of the truck. He probably sold it. Who knows what else he sold? And he’s saying he’s got no money for fuel? And here we got the grass growing right round the bloody houses. People not that silly. People keep saying to him, ‘just provide the tractor’. He still wont provide the slasher. He’s making all these excuses.

GM: If CDEP try and get stuff from him for this Community, they have to pay out of our Community’s funding. Half goes to ADF, half goes to CDEP. He’s saying that what goes to ADF is not enough.

Pay Deductions — Where does it go?

Q What do you know you pay?

GM: We pay $15 for essential services, $10 for firewood and $10 toward community electricity and rent is $75. It was $35 last year and then he said it’s going up to $50.

After that $50 he came back again. He’d changed his mind and said $75 rent a fortnight.

It’s per person in each house, so however many people in that house have to pay $75 each.

They automatically deduct it from CDEP pay. I got all my slips here. Sometimes he doesn’t give those figures to CDEP, because some of those figures we look for on CDEP pay slip, it doesn’t add up to the money we know is missing.

I said to F at CDEP we not going to pay rent! Coz we’re not sure if IHANT collecting the money or ADF. We don’t know who suposed to be collecting the money. Now if Bernie is collecting the money, we don’t know where it’s gone, might be in is pocket? F said "no you mob got to pay rent or you mob get kicked out." She kept on saying like that. I think really hard for that one. I just told her we should just dead stop every deduction out of our CDEP money and then we get everything right — we know who its paying to, who’s in charge of every bits and pieces that we paying money for. Then we’d be certain, and that we’d get the service that we are paying for.

What is essential service?

GM: That’s just for the water and maintenance which they come and fix up, leaking tap or power switch broken. That sort of thing, something wrong with stove, rubbish.

Q How long does it take to come and fix it up?

GM: Oh well, whenever they feel like it. When those (ADF) workers come here to do something we just walk over and tell them. They {rubbish collection] don’t come on time now like they used to, regular. Might be Wednesday and Friday. They don’t do that anymore. They’ll just come anytime, anyday. He won’t let you know what time. Might be a couple of weeks then you’ll just see them picking up rubbish. He was complaining before that — we shouldn’t burn the rubbish in the drums, but these dogs tip it over. Can’t be picking up all the rubbish all the time. We battling as it is.

DT: We used to burn the rubbish all the time and he never said anything — just now.

These things need to be investigated by the relevant people. About power and water mainly.

How much is being paid and taken out from CDEP for pay toward ADF’s house as rent.

There needs to be an investigation there — somebody has to look into it.

Q Are you getting firewood?

TS: Used to be before but not now. No, finish.

What about young people and training?

TS: Nothing.

Q So people never been able to approach ADF, learn how to drive or get a job with ADF to help look after their Community?

TS: Nothing. None at all.

DT: I came here after 1975 after I met my wife, to live here for a while. Us mob hey, I never saw any training towards any young people round here, even work for ADF. Maybe one or two people from town camps but not much really. Only outsiders used to get work.

GM: We tried suggesting it. Some fella there, educated you know. They’ll pick up quick, learn quick. But they reackon he wont give job to Aboriginal people. We tried to ask him to train someone to be in the office, maybe just watch that office lady work and pick up and maybe do training some time at Batchelor. But he said they couldn’t do that. We asked him in 2001. Even CDEP liason job, go out with Dave or Dean as trainee. Maybe then the Community can take over when those boys got the training and experience you know? But they said they haven’t got enough money for it. Some offered volunteer work, still he won’t take it. They just tell us not to go round ask Bernie cause he’ll say no, just drop it there.

Uprgade of houses.

GM: You were here that time we had that meeting here old man? With that ATSIC mob?

When they tell us for them houses they going to renew them and put new houses.

TS: Yeah.

GM: But then that was only one talk we had with ATSIC mob.

TS: That’s it.

GM: All that mob when they signing they didn’t come out to us like how we want that house. Everybody wanted it to be brick because of that cyclone last time. They didn’t get told it was going to be the same - iron house. They didn’t talk with anybody - designing of the rooms, the colour of the tiles, nothing.

Q When was the first time you saw the design for the renovated house at Knuckeys?

GM: When they started to rip it down. One bloke come round, he said ‘I’m just checking where we going to put the new sewage". I said something about this house and he said ‘Don’t say you haven’t seen the design?’ He took out a blueprint and showed us.

Q What did you think about the design?

GM: We felt really left out. I mean we’re the ones that live in that house. We’re the ones who should have a little bit of a say in how we want to live. You know we got kids, we got grandchildren and plus we got a lot of old people here. That house over there is not even big enough. It’s really narrow them rooms. Wheelchair camp really narrow.

Q: Have they got the wheelchair access?

GM: No That’s what I mean. We should have got together and talked about each house.

What I was thinking about wheelchair, is that he’s got to make a ramp for her to go up and a little thing on the toilet to hold when she goes to have a shower. No rails, no nothing. People have to lift her up off the floor or sometimes she has to crawl in the shower. That was it. He just told us there’s going to be 3 new house, 4 going to be renovated. You mob got until next week to move out and all the blokes just come in and straight away worked.

DT: The house we’re living in down the camp, One Mile Dam — Near the doorway there, there was supposed to be a toilet built, and shower — like these houses. But Bernie told them mob who was building it ‘don’t worry about it, just cover it.’ There is supposed to be a self contained toilet within the house. But Bernie said leave it cause their was an ablution block right outside my house. Bernie saved a lot of money from cutting corners. That’s what happened to these Knuckeys Lagoon houses — they weren’t built to design. Even the sceptics. That’s just some of the things Bernie’s doing, cutting corners to save money.

That needs to be looked at.

 

 

GM: Then again, what about if Bernie Valadian reads this? He might come around and say ‘ Oh alright, I know you mob been having meeting.’ What’s going to happen? Like, I’m just asking, what’s going to happen? We going to get supported on that? I know he won’t have the right to kick us out because we got all that tenancy agreement we signed through ADF or IHANT?. But lot of people scared of him, think he will kick them out if they talk story.

ADF worker told us he don’t like meetings without him knowing. Say like this meeting now. He finds we had the meeting here, he get really angry. He don’t like private meetings. We had one meeting with that bloke for training for forklift. He got really angry with us and again the ADF worker told us next time we want to have a meeting we have to call him up and let him know first.

Q Some people living in the old houses here?

GM: Yeah. They getting painted up, from us mob. We doing this thing, going with paint mob from CDEP. They bring paint out and usually the boys, they clean up, paint em up. ADF didn’t do that for us or CDEP. We did it ourselves.

 

GM: We wanted power cards, not this main electricity. I don’t know how many times we where explaining to Bernie time and time again. These old people they don’t know how to save money. When their payday come they bookdown. When you got power card, they know you have to buy it, it’s easy. They go and buy $10 or $20 and put it in. But this other power goes on and on and on and next minute they realise power cut off and they got no money because sometimes they bookup too much. "Bernie",. I said, "why don’t you start this side and can you just start with the old people and that block?" The people that came to check the block said ‘Yeah, they can do it". But Bernie told us that they couldn’t do it. He said that every house had to be renovated first.

DT: Noone in these Communities have any say. If this is what the people want, he seem to override what the people say. They just don’t have any powers.

How do you want to see your communities run?

GM: Community Council from each town camp meet up every 2-3 months — let leaders talk to community first, you know, ideas and suggestions from community members and take it to the big meeting then talk about it here, and like maybe they say yes, think that’s a good idea, no. Community members from each town camp.

DT: We’d like any suggestions from ATSIC too. This ADF been looking after 4 town camps, 1 Mile Dam, Knuckeys, 15 Mile and Adelaide River. It should stay in the hands of the people who are running the whole thing or even find somebody to run it. Because ADF got the equipment there, still doing the same thing like it’s always been except nother mob people running it, different people, committee members from each camp cept under another name maybe.

Q: Bernie Valadian, what is his job?

DT: What I know is Bernie was supposed to be working for the people, look after the interests of the people and and not the other way round. But ever since ADF was formed, it’s always been Bernie doing this for the people and the people is doing what Bernie wanted them to do. He’d have all the say of what goes on in the community. He hires and fires whoever he wants. He’s been just a one man show and noone’s been able to say anything against him during the past, even if you were a member on in the committee, he’d have you kicked out of the committee, voted off or kicked out be getting the others to vote against you. Not that you vote so much, he’s manipulative and the way he gets other people on the committee to sort of agree with him to get rid of this bloke, he’s sort of cunning in like that. He’s very good at that.

Signing for tucka

GM: You know when he brings them tucka, we sign the paper. Might be he take em out of wages hey? That’s the one now we might miss him. Whatever he give you, one bread, might be one tea leaf, chicken and you gonna sign for it. Even one little packet of sausage, one bread - we sign.

 

 

Q: What about the food voucher?

GM: That’s different. Even if he gives you that food voucher, you got to sign. We want to know what he’s doing, Maybe that’s where our money’s going, maybe our money’s gone missing there. Each camp is different sheets of paper they sign, they all got to sign and blankets, you sign. We would like to know about everything that goes on. He reckon he just keep it for reference or something. We try to ask CDEP mob but they don’t know what’s going on. Maybe for his record hey so they can get more funding.

 

DT: He’s selling things out of ADF.

GM: Well, he going to leave everyone broke. We need it,investigation to be done quick, he’s been doing it over the years slowly slowly. He got it where he want it now. If he walks out he’ll just walk out just like that.

I been told from the old DAA days (Department Aboriginal Affairs) all the old stuff he used to have there, I think he’s getting rid of. ATSIC or whoever it is, maybe the fraud squad should check it out. That’s Aboriginal money for the camps. Noone likes him anymore. A lot of people over the years since ADF started been trying to get rid of him, from what I been told over the years. But Bernie was somehow recognized by the government of the day, for when he used to work for the lands branch, he got the nod and this other aboriginal fella got knocked out.

GM: He’s slowing things down. We’d like to see this place up and running more better than what it was before; we want to have fun like stuff for the kids here, recreation and all that stuff. Even BJ, the fella that was here, he tried and tried to get a playground for the kids asking ADF to fund it, but they told him he had to do it himself. You see these kids nowadays here. They just go straight for ganja now, drink, coz they got nothing to do, might be weekend programs or holiday programs, you know, get somebody come here, take them out for holiday, give parents a break.

DT: I reckon CDEP got too much on its plate already coz they look after communities everywhere, all these other Aboriginal organizations. That’s where the ADF should come in, still work the same way with this 3 or 4 town camp. Because right now we’re not getting much done with this CDEP. A lot of other organizations came on board when CDEP was just meant for town camps. Since they’ve taken the other organizations on board, they’ve been just about forgetting all these town camps communites. Lot of favortism going on with CDEP workers.

GM: Because you look, one fan belt arrived yesterday afternoon. We ordered that 4 weeks ago through CDEP. Their office, if ever there — they just have to go to Bunnings or whatever, this hardware store to get it. Should be straight forward to get it. Parts, even fuel, we have to wait a couple of weeks then go and remind them again. We go in our own private vehicle they give us.

DT: Lot of these CDEP project workers, they’d rather go miles and miles away. They don’t like working in the close area.

GM: That’s what we’re suggesting, Aboriginal trainees for CDEP working with them as trainees and expand the job a little bit, like for liasion officer and some things like that. We want to see Aboriginal people there, doing not just half caste people but train blackfella, like at Communities. If you don’t know how to read and write, send them for training at Batchelor. They’ll learn, pick up. They might reackon Aboriginal people are dumb.

That’s why I’m thinking about this lease see, this part of it. Somebody signed that lease and we’d like to know who. And maybe get a copy and try look how long. They reackon he signed a lease here, because even CDEP mob tried to do some things here. But he sort of told them off about that leasing thing and even when they went to the police, I don’t know who they approached. They said ‘Oh Bernie Valadian has got every right to say something for this place cause he’s the lease, he’s hold it.’ We don’t know how long it is.

Kicked off the committee

GM: Cause it looks like nobody’s got any right to talk back to him. Me, I don’t care, I talk back. I tell him off, but I’m not happy with that, I tell you, sometimes he don’t like me. He don’t like me to be on the committee anyway. Last time I was asking for how we wanted to see all financial papers for funding or whatever it’s being used on. Come back and tell the community here — he’s using money for this and that. left 1-how much is spent. 2-that’s how much is left. He don’t like it. That’s why he put M on the committee and I got put off.

We starting to feel it now, we can feel what’s happening to this community. Like all this rubbish business stop, all the help from ADF stop.

When you talk to him he just say one word — short on funding. That’s all, can’t do anything about it. ‘If you mob want to complain, go. Complain to ATSIC to get some money.’ That’s what his workers say to us too. They tell us sometimes, ‘you mob, complain to ATSIC about him as well — his workers." They don’t like him you know. But they just doing their job, just to make money. They get proper wages you know.

DT: I think if you’re a bloke who’s smart, you can read and you’re intelligent, Bernie doesn’t like you on the committee or anywhere at ADF, he just wont want anything to do wiith you, and hell, if you start making noises about how things are being run under him and you’re on the committee, he’ll get together with the other mob on the committee and he’ll sort of manipulate them, get them into voting to get you off the committee. And he’s done that lots of times, even with me. He got all his mob that were on the committee — all his mob who’d support him and that’s how I got off the committee in 2000/2001.

Media

GM: He came here with them blokes [media] might be ABC that day. We were CDEP working and we were starting to cut that Wheelchair house now that it was grass all over. He said "no,no leave it, just leave it." I said "what for." He said "just leave it because we’re busy." But what he wanted was to take a photo of that house with the grass and say that, well this is the effect of the ATSIC mob cutting of funding and we can’t do much job. But we were doing the job.

Q: You were doing it without his help?

GM: Yeah.But he told us to leave that grass and rubbish — just leave it. But we didn’t realise it was his job to pick up the rubbish too hey. Might be it go back to ATSIC, ATSIS look at this shit or something.

I said ‘come on, lets go home first’. We left that lawnmower, we wait til he go. I said "next time he come around keep cutting", I got really wild with my husband here when we came back. He said what for? I had to bring him back here and explain to him ‘oh that’s why it is. Well we should a kept cutting’ Well too late now, the photo’s been taken and everything and he’s gonna blame ATSIC.

Q: What was he doing at 15 mile?

GM: He wanted to take photo in that house. He didn’t go for the clean ones. He went for the really dirty houses, the ones that tea leaf stuck in the sink. Kimby’s laying around and he photograph all the toilet when drunken people make mess. He photographed it. - just to say that they want money from ATSIC, more money to build up better living facilities, but it’s not like that. It’s the person in the house got to keep that house clean, not ATSIC. They just give you the money to live.

You’re the one responsible for your own doings. Some of the photos he showed us at the meeting, photos of longgrass, he didn’t photograph good things. Like when he come here and didn’t come into my house and photograph my toilet and shower. You know I would have put him to shame cause my toilet always scrubbed and clean. He would have taken photos of houses that side, all the drunks where they camp.

He make it look like Aboriginal people need that help, they can’t do anything for themselves — and he tried to make it look like that. He took that food been left over for 2 days, he went and took photograph of it. Might be photograph in news, mob ABC.

GM: He took off all the connection for the taps ouside. He reackon too much water being wasted. We had big water bill hey. Round about $4000. He said because we haven’t got funding from ATSIC, he just came and shut every tap off outside.

DT: It’s his way of saying ‘you can’t have anymore money’, so to save some money to line his own pocket.

Q: Is everyone still paying that essential service fee?

GM: Yeah! Still coming out, never stop. This happened early this year, they took the head off tap and blocked it up. But now he only put them on for certain people. He wanted people to chuck in extra $50 each. I said "why don’t we just have our own water meters, they should put em every house. These houses got a tenancy agreement, we should have our own water meters and get it read, but nothing. He’s cut all the water off. The only water we got in the house for outside is from our wasing machine tap. We need it for verandahs — dog came and lay down on this verandah, like us mob, we like to clean up all around. He said he was going to come and put my tap back on, but he never did..

I said to that ADF worker ‘what you doing with my tap. We need that hose for watering the garden.’ Oh sorry he said, Bernie Valadians orders, unless I can leave it and you go have a talk straight away to Bernie. If not I’ll just have to shut it off. He said ‘if I don’t do it I’ll lose my job.’ That’s what he said and I sort of felt sorry for him. I knew if he didn’t do it he would’ve lost his job. I said next time you come and warn me. I was really angry with him. How am I going to keep the garden. Maybe he don’t like to see blackfella live good, hey.

But how much water is he using in his area and how much does it cost us mob? And who’s paying?

DT: Aboriginal money is paying. You see all the garden at his place?

GM: You see some of these plants, this year might be gunna die now in the hot weather.

And one time he was complaining somebody was using too much electricity round here. He came and asked me, this electricity been used here and those power and water mob said from the street lights work, nothing. Since when I came here nothing was working and still haven’t got street lights. He said a lot of power being used somewhere. He don’t realise we got a community washing machine here. He reckon it come from the street lights, but street lights not working, not for four years now.

He can give authority to Power and Water to cut you power off.

Q: Has he done that before?

GM: Yeah. He’s done that before. He can cut your power off and he can rip your iron off your roof and he can go in and weld the door, weld it on so you can’t get in.

DT: He welded doors at One Mile Dam toilet too. Opposite my house on stilts so we cant open the doors and use the toilets and showers, for using up too much water. There was one time he fixed a piece to the main pipe at the front gate and he built a pipe with PVC so he could disconnect it. All he had to do was disconnect it if no one was paying their bill to stop all the water going into camp at One Mile Dam. Nobody had water. He done that a few times. I think he got into trouble, he was told to put it back on.

It’s not his property

Photo No roof Number 11 house

GM: He’ll come rip your house apart. He ripped it when this mob went to Palmerston drinking. Couple of years ago now. When they come back a couple of days after they got the big shock. Hey, what happened to this house. Bernie came rip him off. I think he want you mob out. Are you paying rent? How can you pay rent for those old houses. They’re too old, maybe that’s what he wants. He might do the same to all us mob. He might rip em this iron if we don’t pay the bill.

DT: But he’s got to be exposed.